Doctor Who 4x13 "Journey's End"
Jul. 6th, 2008 05:27 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
kerravonsenI've seen it now. As expected, there was a lot of spectacle, a lot of emotion, and not much sense. But at least it was better than Fairy!Doctor. There were points that hit me just there, and others that were dumb. As expected from RTD, really.
WAH! Donna! I cried. WAH!
Even though I knew it was most likely to be Donna who died, I was expecting it to happen in the crisis, not afterwards. Mind you, I actually did like the logic of her mind burning up from Time Lord thoughts; presumably the clone-Doctor didn't have that problem because he had a Time Lord brain and Donna didn't.
How long will it be until someone writes a story where Donna remembers? Five minutes? Almost anything can be fixed in fanfic. (I must make an icon of that) And this is much more fixable than Donna being dead dead.
(Edit: See? there be AU fic already)
Okay, from the top.
The Claytons Regeneration: ten points to all the people who theorized that the Hand would have something to do with how that was resolved. I expect that there will be huge debates as to whether Ten has actually used up a regeneration or not. Oh dear, now that I've capitalized the Hand, I'm thinking The Hand of The Doctor, like The Hand of Omega. Not the same though. But hey, he no longer has a hand-in-a-jar. Rose has got the Hand of the Doctor! "I give you my Hand in marriage." Sorry, but the idea makes me giggle.
Torchwood Time-Lock:
Cool!
Saving Sarah-Jane:
Mickey! And Jackie! Whoa, Jackie! Hooray for the Hufflepuffs! Heh, and how Mickey kissed his gun goodbye when he surrendered.
The Reality Bomb:
They're running out of names for doomsday weapons, aren't they? And the Armageddon Element was better, anyway. And the Daleks wouldn't have been the only life-forms left in the universe; there was the life on the 27 planets; not just humans, but surely the Adipose and the Paravalians were there too (though obviously they didn't do anything in the crisis). Though I guess the Daleks were intending to exterminate them later. Or use them as slaves.
The Oster-Hagen Key:
Okay, so that's what it was. I loved how the Daleks in those scenes were screaming in German, and how we had German dialogue between Martha and the woman. Maybe![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
vilakins can tell me what they said. But it's a darned stupid invention, for two reasons: (a) no matter the protocols, it's far too risky in case an enemy got control of it and (b) suicide is always stupid.
Revealing the Doctor's soul:
It's fair enough, I suppose, to point out the hypocracy of allowing one's companions to do the violence on one's behalf; not just New Who companions, but Ace and Leela are good examples of that too. On the other hand, throwing in his face all the people who've died for him (ah, what a cavalcade of deaths that was) isn't the same, not unless you don't believe in free will, in the right of other people to help save the universe too. Yes, I have a right to be a martyr if I want to.
Why do both Daleks and Cybermen rave on about how much a liability emotions are? With the Cybermen it makes sense, but with Daleks it doesn't, quite, because Daleks are actually more emotional than Cybermen. But I wish I could figure out the definitive refutation of that old chestnut. The standard answers (the Power of Love, the Power of Friendship, the Power of Emotional Motivation and But It's What Makes Life Worth Living) really aren't good enough, in my not-so-humble opinion.
Human-TimeLord MetaCrisis:
What a lot of technobabble. It makes absolutely no sense. Really.
The TARDIS seems to get mended awfully quickly. Why didn't the Daleks notice that the TARDIS had dematerialized rather than been destroyed? Stupidity-for-the-sake-of-Plot, I expect.
But I did enjoy watching Super!Donna -- though I think I would have gotten annoyed at her if it had continued on for too long.
Caan the Prophet:
I liked how Dalek Caan was actually manipulating the Daleks all this time; betraying them. Though it seemed as if it was also manipulating things around Donna, which is rather too god-like to be believable. Oh well.
It's a bit of a cop-out to say that the Doctor's companions are "the children of time". And, no, they aren't his family, not really, despite what Sarah-Jane said.
I liked certain full-circle-ness that we had, though:
- Caan being the antithesis of the Emperor Dalek in Parting of the Ways
- Davros recognising Sarah-Jane; full circle from the beginning to the end.
The Destruction of the Daleks:
I'm a bit confused by this. I thought the original plan of Hand!Doctor was to get Davros's genetic print, and tune the Reality Bomb to destroy all the Daleks (as it apparently could be tuned, since in the test run it was tuned to just destroy the humans). However, after they'd made the Daleks helpless, they could have done that then, but instead they... increased power to the Dalekanium and overloaded them all? Oh, I suppose they couldn't because the gun-thing had been blasted. But it really doesn't make much sense. I mean "This is the Dalek Empire a the height of its power" super!mega!impossible-to-beat, and then they get all wiped out by flicking a few switches? Lame.
"I name you destroyer of worlds!" I hope the Doctor isn't stupid enough to take that to heart. Davros isn't the kind of person who ought to be listened to. Why does the Doctor keep on wanting to rescue the bastard?
Towing the Earth:
That was really stupid. I did like how the Doctor calling up people and they all said first "is so-and-so there?" And I guess from a thematic point of view, a long scene with uplifting music was part of the rejoicing we-won thing. But it was still stupid. Not to mention that K-9 really shouldn't have been able to appear; wasn't he supposed to be out on the edge of the solar system? I doubt a warp portal would have stretched all the way to the Medusa Cascade.
Departures - Mickey:
So his Gran's dead after all. But it seems to indicate that he had some good years with her, anyway. Oh well.
Departures - Rose:
I'm uncertain as to what I think of the Rose/Doctor solution. Yes, it ties everything up in a neat bow... but I guess I simply don't care what happens to Rose. Particularly since she was still being all whiny about being left behind. Stupid girl. I liked how the Hand!Doctor was able to whisper "I love you" (I assume that was it) while the Real!Doctor wouldn't. But I didn't like the Doctor saying that the Hand!Doctor was All Wrong because he committed genocide and that Rose had to look after him (with the implication that he was a dangerous loose canon that could explode any minute). That didn't make sense to me at all. Still, I suppose the Rose/Doctor shippers will be happy. Well, they ought to be happy. Darned ungrateful if they aren't.
Departures - Donna:
It doesn't make sense for the Doctor to have stuck around to be seen by Donna, since he'd be a reminder of everything. I guess they wanted to do that in order to demonstrate how thoroughly she'd forgotten everything.
(hugs Wilfred) Onya, gramps.
"You have all these friends, why are you alone?"
"They all have other people."
I'm glad they didn't go straight into the Christmas-Special tag as they did with earlier ones. Leaves a bit of a gap for fanfic writers. Unless, of course, they do some sort of Children-in-need mini-scene like they did between "Parting of the Ways" and "The Christmas Invasion".
Loose ends:
1) Still didn't explain how Rose knew so much. Partly explained it by saying that Rose's time was going at a faster rate than the Doctor's time, but there were certain things she shouldn't have known anyway. Oh, actually they had already implied that time went faster in the parallel universe, now that I think of it, because in Doomsday Mickey and Pete did imply that more time had passed there than here.
2) And Bad Wolf really had nothing to do with it, after all.
3) Mickey and Martha might work for Torchwood? That would be ace.
4) Would the missing planets have been returned to the times as well as the places they came from? Because if they had, then they would never have gone missing, and certain crises (such as Partners In Crime and The Fires of Pompeii) would never have occurred. I guess we can handwave that, and say that they went missing for a period of time, and were returned a bit later than when they left. Maybe.
5) What of the Shadow Proclamation? He left them in rather a hurry; maybe they're pissed off at him.
6) I expect Davros isn't really dead. Any more than the Master is really dead. Though I'd rather see the Master again than Davros again.
The trailer:
The Return of the Cybermen. (sigh) Though I must admit, I'm not as sick of the Cybermen as I'm sick of the Daleks.
Now going to see what everyone else thought.
WAH! Donna! I cried. WAH!
Even though I knew it was most likely to be Donna who died, I was expecting it to happen in the crisis, not afterwards. Mind you, I actually did like the logic of her mind burning up from Time Lord thoughts; presumably the clone-Doctor didn't have that problem because he had a Time Lord brain and Donna didn't.
How long will it be until someone writes a story where Donna remembers? Five minutes? Almost anything can be fixed in fanfic. (I must make an icon of that) And this is much more fixable than Donna being dead dead.
(Edit: See? there be AU fic already)
Okay, from the top.
The Claytons Regeneration: ten points to all the people who theorized that the Hand would have something to do with how that was resolved. I expect that there will be huge debates as to whether Ten has actually used up a regeneration or not. Oh dear, now that I've capitalized the Hand, I'm thinking The Hand of The Doctor, like The Hand of Omega. Not the same though. But hey, he no longer has a hand-in-a-jar. Rose has got the Hand of the Doctor! "I give you my Hand in marriage." Sorry, but the idea makes me giggle.
Torchwood Time-Lock:
Cool!
Saving Sarah-Jane:
Mickey! And Jackie! Whoa, Jackie! Hooray for the Hufflepuffs! Heh, and how Mickey kissed his gun goodbye when he surrendered.
The Reality Bomb:
They're running out of names for doomsday weapons, aren't they? And the Armageddon Element was better, anyway. And the Daleks wouldn't have been the only life-forms left in the universe; there was the life on the 27 planets; not just humans, but surely the Adipose and the Paravalians were there too (though obviously they didn't do anything in the crisis). Though I guess the Daleks were intending to exterminate them later. Or use them as slaves.
The Oster-Hagen Key:
Okay, so that's what it was. I loved how the Daleks in those scenes were screaming in German, and how we had German dialogue between Martha and the woman. Maybe
vilakins can tell me what they said. But it's a darned stupid invention, for two reasons: (a) no matter the protocols, it's far too risky in case an enemy got control of it and (b) suicide is always stupid.Revealing the Doctor's soul:
It's fair enough, I suppose, to point out the hypocracy of allowing one's companions to do the violence on one's behalf; not just New Who companions, but Ace and Leela are good examples of that too. On the other hand, throwing in his face all the people who've died for him (ah, what a cavalcade of deaths that was) isn't the same, not unless you don't believe in free will, in the right of other people to help save the universe too. Yes, I have a right to be a martyr if I want to.
Why do both Daleks and Cybermen rave on about how much a liability emotions are? With the Cybermen it makes sense, but with Daleks it doesn't, quite, because Daleks are actually more emotional than Cybermen. But I wish I could figure out the definitive refutation of that old chestnut. The standard answers (the Power of Love, the Power of Friendship, the Power of Emotional Motivation and But It's What Makes Life Worth Living) really aren't good enough, in my not-so-humble opinion.
Human-TimeLord MetaCrisis:
What a lot of technobabble. It makes absolutely no sense. Really.
The TARDIS seems to get mended awfully quickly. Why didn't the Daleks notice that the TARDIS had dematerialized rather than been destroyed? Stupidity-for-the-sake-of-Plot, I expect.
But I did enjoy watching Super!Donna -- though I think I would have gotten annoyed at her if it had continued on for too long.
Caan the Prophet:
I liked how Dalek Caan was actually manipulating the Daleks all this time; betraying them. Though it seemed as if it was also manipulating things around Donna, which is rather too god-like to be believable. Oh well.
It's a bit of a cop-out to say that the Doctor's companions are "the children of time". And, no, they aren't his family, not really, despite what Sarah-Jane said.
I liked certain full-circle-ness that we had, though:
- Caan being the antithesis of the Emperor Dalek in Parting of the Ways
- Davros recognising Sarah-Jane; full circle from the beginning to the end.
The Destruction of the Daleks:
I'm a bit confused by this. I thought the original plan of Hand!Doctor was to get Davros's genetic print, and tune the Reality Bomb to destroy all the Daleks (as it apparently could be tuned, since in the test run it was tuned to just destroy the humans). However, after they'd made the Daleks helpless, they could have done that then, but instead they... increased power to the Dalekanium and overloaded them all? Oh, I suppose they couldn't because the gun-thing had been blasted. But it really doesn't make much sense. I mean "This is the Dalek Empire a the height of its power" super!mega!impossible-to-beat, and then they get all wiped out by flicking a few switches? Lame.
"I name you destroyer of worlds!" I hope the Doctor isn't stupid enough to take that to heart. Davros isn't the kind of person who ought to be listened to. Why does the Doctor keep on wanting to rescue the bastard?
Towing the Earth:
That was really stupid. I did like how the Doctor calling up people and they all said first "is so-and-so there?" And I guess from a thematic point of view, a long scene with uplifting music was part of the rejoicing we-won thing. But it was still stupid. Not to mention that K-9 really shouldn't have been able to appear; wasn't he supposed to be out on the edge of the solar system? I doubt a warp portal would have stretched all the way to the Medusa Cascade.
Departures - Mickey:
So his Gran's dead after all. But it seems to indicate that he had some good years with her, anyway. Oh well.
Departures - Rose:
I'm uncertain as to what I think of the Rose/Doctor solution. Yes, it ties everything up in a neat bow... but I guess I simply don't care what happens to Rose. Particularly since she was still being all whiny about being left behind. Stupid girl. I liked how the Hand!Doctor was able to whisper "I love you" (I assume that was it) while the Real!Doctor wouldn't. But I didn't like the Doctor saying that the Hand!Doctor was All Wrong because he committed genocide and that Rose had to look after him (with the implication that he was a dangerous loose canon that could explode any minute). That didn't make sense to me at all. Still, I suppose the Rose/Doctor shippers will be happy. Well, they ought to be happy. Darned ungrateful if they aren't.
Departures - Donna:
It doesn't make sense for the Doctor to have stuck around to be seen by Donna, since he'd be a reminder of everything. I guess they wanted to do that in order to demonstrate how thoroughly she'd forgotten everything.
(hugs Wilfred) Onya, gramps.
"You have all these friends, why are you alone?"
"They all have other people."
I'm glad they didn't go straight into the Christmas-Special tag as they did with earlier ones. Leaves a bit of a gap for fanfic writers. Unless, of course, they do some sort of Children-in-need mini-scene like they did between "Parting of the Ways" and "The Christmas Invasion".
Loose ends:
1) Still didn't explain how Rose knew so much. Partly explained it by saying that Rose's time was going at a faster rate than the Doctor's time, but there were certain things she shouldn't have known anyway. Oh, actually they had already implied that time went faster in the parallel universe, now that I think of it, because in Doomsday Mickey and Pete did imply that more time had passed there than here.
2) And Bad Wolf really had nothing to do with it, after all.
3) Mickey and Martha might work for Torchwood? That would be ace.
4) Would the missing planets have been returned to the times as well as the places they came from? Because if they had, then they would never have gone missing, and certain crises (such as Partners In Crime and The Fires of Pompeii) would never have occurred. I guess we can handwave that, and say that they went missing for a period of time, and were returned a bit later than when they left. Maybe.
5) What of the Shadow Proclamation? He left them in rather a hurry; maybe they're pissed off at him.
6) I expect Davros isn't really dead. Any more than the Master is really dead. Though I'd rather see the Master again than Davros again.
The trailer:
The Return of the Cybermen. (sigh) Though I must admit, I'm not as sick of the Cybermen as I'm sick of the Daleks.
Now going to see what everyone else thought.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2008-07-06 09:57 am (UTC)LOL!
Seeing DoctorDonna, I did wonder if RTD could have read and gained inspiration from your RomanaRose story.
no subject
Date: 2008-07-06 10:12 am (UTC)I doubt it very very much. The ideas are too dissimilar. Though there is the paintball gun thing. But no.
no subject
Date: 2008-07-06 10:52 am (UTC)1) The earth being towed. The acceleration alone would have killed everyone and stripped the atmosphere.
2) Doctor Mk 2 doing domestic with Rose. Sigh.
3) Most of all, Donna never knowing she was so wonderful: she's back where she started.
Oh yeah, the German. I'm not sure I got it all, but:
The Daleks were saying: "Exterminate, exterminate. You will be exterminated, you are all [couldn't catch it] of the Daleks."
When Martha speaks to the guardian:
"There is no one here. Whatever you want, go away. Leave me in peace."
"I'm called Martha Jones. I come from UNIT, agent number 55671, from the medical division."
"You are the nightmare, not them."
Then, when Martha operates the lift and she pulls a gun:
"I should kill you, preferably right now."
And when Martha turns as the doors close:
"Martha, to hell with you."
[Martha agrees.]
no subject
Date: 2008-07-06 11:21 am (UTC)But Mary Sue is supposed to get the Hero. (eyeroll)
Most of all, Donna never knowing she was so wonderful: she's back where she started.
There's some slight hope there, if Donna's mother actually encourages her for the first time in her life.
Thanks for the translation!
no subject
Date: 2008-07-06 01:03 pm (UTC)I disagree. Sure, they're not his family in the Jenny sense, but they are in a lot of ways his family--he needs them and where are they? Right there.
Yes, Martha and Mickey working for Torchwood would rule.
But it's a darned stupid invention, for two reasons: (a) no matter the protocols, it's far too risky in case an enemy got control of it and (b) suicide is always stupid.
I agree that it's awfully dangerous if someone really sick and twisted got a hold of it, but if there was no Doctor to bail them out, it would've stopped the Daleks' master plan. One hopes.
I liked seeing international UNIT members. (I'm amused that Jack seems to think Martha should leave though. :)
no subject
Date: 2008-07-06 07:50 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-07-06 08:06 pm (UTC)Still, look at it this way: Owen was a long way toward Torchwood being incompetent. Replace him with Martha, who's competent, has common sense, and can probably teach Gwen to know the difference between her impulses that are noble and right and her impulses that are noble and foolish. Bring in Mickey who knows incompetence and has beaten it. You might see a Very Different Torchwood. :)
That said, I'll still miss Owen and Tosh. (Though Tosh more than Dead Boy.)
no subject
Date: 2008-07-06 08:13 pm (UTC)I fell in love with Tosh.
no subject
Date: 2008-07-06 08:49 pm (UTC)Martha did seem to indicate, in the Sontaran one, that one of her aims was to reform UNIT from within. And considering how many UNIT personel got exterminated, she might have another promotion in the wings.
So she'd have good reasons to stay with UNIT. I'm not certain that anything that happened in Journey's End would have made her change her mind. That isn't to say she wouldn't change her mind, but I don't think she indicated that she'd changed her mind.
Externally, I guess it would depend on whether Freema wanted to have a part on Torchwood or not. I agree that Martha would be very good for the competence level of Torchwood, but then she'd be very good for the competence level of anywhere she worked.
That said, I'll still miss Owen and Tosh. (Though Tosh more than Dead Boy.)
Yes. Though it's very surprising how much better Owen was once he got himself killed. 8-/
no subject
Date: 2008-08-02 12:38 pm (UTC)Loved seeing Mickey and Jackie again!
Towing the earth . . . meh. I did wonder about the delicate balance of climate and gravity and such . . . but seeing as how they were sucked into another region of space and nothing happened . . . whatever . . .
Rose/Doctor . . . so they finally gave Rose her 'shippy ending. I'm sort of "whatever" about that, too. It was as convenient a device as they could come up with for that one, I suppose, and giving the Doctor only one life to spend with her . . . well, she kind of gets everything she wants, doesn't she.
Donna . . . I've discovered this morning that I can't look at Doctor&Donna icons in the same way right now. It just hurts. Everything that Donna has been--both to us and to The Doctor--is wiped away. "Runaway Bride" never happened for her. All her traveling to foreign countries never happened (or, at least, that's the way I read it). And of course, all her adventures with The Doctor. She would rather have died traveling with The Doctor than to have all that taken away from her. I know exactly why he did what he did--to save her life. And yet, in a manner of speaking, he did kill the Donna he knew, the Donna we knew, the Donna she became. But you are right in that they didn't kill her kill her, so it is possible that eventually she'll start having snatches of memory. (Because really, that's a lot of blank space to fill. What does she now remember as happening in all that time, considering that time has passed for the world around her?) There must be a way, yes? She is still special in that now she, as one of the saviors of the universe, must be protected . . . from remembering. And I can very much see The Doctor stopping in for tea with Gramps from time to time, to covertly check on Donna and see how she's living her life.
I'm sorry. I'm babbling. I loved Donna. It's going to take me a while to adjust to the idea of what they did. I'll shut up now.
no subject
Date: 2008-08-02 01:36 pm (UTC)Yes. Now that more time has gone past, and I've read tons of fixit fic (mostly from