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kerravonsenOkay, this has to be the ultimate distraction; I did some digital art and completely lost track of time. But it is of the coolness! It's called Storm Crows and it is the 9th Doctor and Gandalf being all storm-crow-y. I've had this idea for a long time, almost ever since my first discussion of 9th Doc with ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
aizain where we were comparing the Doctor to Gandalf. I'm very happy to have done it not too badly. And you will notice my new user icon, which is based on a very cropped and shrunk version of the picture.
Squee!
ETA: I'm not insane enough to challenge people to write a story based on this picture, because I cannot imagine that anybody, however brilliant my friends list is, could make a Doctor Who/Lord of the Rings crossover that was believable.
aizain where we were comparing the Doctor to Gandalf. I'm very happy to have done it not too badly. And you will notice my new user icon, which is based on a very cropped and shrunk version of the picture.Squee!
ETA: I'm not insane enough to challenge people to write a story based on this picture, because I cannot imagine that anybody, however brilliant my friends list is, could make a Doctor Who/Lord of the Rings crossover that was believable.
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Date: 2005-09-19 05:50 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-19 05:52 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-19 05:55 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-19 06:25 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-19 06:00 am (UTC)If I weren't absolutely overwhelmed (and had seen Nine), I'd take you up on that. 'Cause I've already thought of two ways to do it, and I'm sure there are more. And no, not telling, because someday I might catch up.
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Date: 2005-09-19 06:11 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-19 06:26 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-19 06:27 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-19 06:29 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-19 06:28 am (UTC)Aw. Not even telling someone else, like
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Date: 2005-09-19 06:37 am (UTC)You know, it should be a ficathon. I could post twenty-five Gandalf-Nine scenarios and everybody could choose one. (Calm down, I'm joking!)
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Date: 2005-09-19 07:08 am (UTC)Well, that would be one way of getting
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Date: 2005-09-19 07:09 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-19 09:08 am (UTC)The real problem is that there are several of them that intrigue me. And I do NOT want to spend the rest of my life writing them!!!!
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Date: 2005-09-19 09:26 am (UTC)I'm not quite following you there...
And I do NOT want to spend the rest of my life writing them!
Don't worry, you won't. (grin)
Remember, the problem is when one starts running out of ideas...
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Date: 2005-09-19 09:43 am (UTC)Well, posit that the verses of LOTR and Who exist somewhere (as most fanfic does) and that they can intersect (as crossovers do) and you have "real" Gandalf meeting "real" Nine. I suspect this is what you're really after.
Posit that LOTR is fiction in the world of Who but (1) the Doctor enters the fiction or (2) the fictional Gandalf is drawn into the Whoverse or (3) the Doctor encounters a simulation or re-enactment of LOTR, and you have "real" Nine meets "fictional" Gandalf.
Posit that LOTR and Who are both fiction in the external world but that fictions can interact with each other 'off the books' (such as in the Thursday Next books) and you have "fictional" Nine meets "fictional" Gandalf. A Nine-Gandalf-Next crossover, for instance, would be easy for somebody familiar enough with all three; you'd just use the Nextverse for the base universe.
I haven't yet come across one that believably puts "real" Gandalf with "fictional" Nine, since it would be hard for the denizens of Middle Earth to come up with the Whoverse as one of their stories.
Remember, the problem is when one starts running out of ideas...
Yes, but why do I always get the zany ones? And when will I get some original characters and original plot that fit together and still fall within my ability to write them? Grr....
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Date: 2005-09-19 10:53 am (UTC)Yes, really.
you'd just use the Nextverse for the base universe.
Another similar scenario would be to use the Harold Shea "Compleate Enchanter" universe, which posits that all fictional "universes" actually exist, and writers have simply tapped into them, so to speak. Our Hero, Harold Shea has adventures travelling between fictional universes, falling afoul of the denizens there, and trying to figure out the local "laws of metaphysics" in the particular universe he happens to be in. I actually like this idea better than the Nextverse. Problem is, I can't see why either the Doctor, or Gandalf, would have any means or reason to end up in the same universe, but at least this method would allow there to be magic in one universe and science in the other.
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Date: 2005-09-19 06:35 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-19 06:36 am (UTC)*shakes head* can only keep one thought in my head tonight...
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Date: 2005-09-19 07:00 am (UTC)Thanks. 8-)
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Date: 2005-09-19 06:36 am (UTC)no subject
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Date: 2005-09-19 06:38 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-19 07:02 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-19 09:04 am (UTC)Since Tolkien set LotR somewhere in the distant past of our own Earth (admittedly not altogether plausibly), I can't se any insuperable obstacle to having the Doctor pay a visit.
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Date: 2005-09-19 09:23 am (UTC)Since Tolkien set LotR somewhere in the distant past of our own Earth (admittedly not altogether plausibly), I can't se any insuperable obstacle to having the Doctor pay a visit.
Apart from that one is a fantasy universe and the other is an SF universe...?
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Date: 2005-09-19 09:46 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-19 10:22 am (UTC)That artwork is absolutely stunning. The uncanny thing is that they actually look like family. Well, they're both northern English, I suppose.
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Date: 2005-09-19 10:44 am (UTC)Oh, good point! I'd forgotten about that.
That artwork is absolutely stunning.
Thank you. 8-D
The uncanny thing is that they actually look like family. Well, they're both northern English, I suppose.
Hmmmm.
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Date: 2005-09-19 10:54 am (UTC)2nd Doctor!!! Yay!!!
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Date: 2005-09-19 10:45 am (UTC)I think I'd be rather sad if someone tried to do that to LotR...
Cool as the crack of dawn, I'll give you that...
Date: 2005-09-22 01:23 pm (UTC)What WAS the comparison we were making, though? Now I remember. If you travel with Gandalf, you have to grow up and join the uncomfortable fellowship of those who put their lives on the line. If you travel with the Doctor, your world will be turned inside out, and open into dimensions you can never forget.
But I was also thinking of that other tack of mine. The stages of maturity of the hero, in the World Beyond the Hill...
The Youth is Alice or Dorothy, or John Carter or Flash Gordon, a stranger in the World; and the World (blessedly free from any obligation to make sense) is there to offer such mysteries as one youngster might handle given politeness, humanity, sharp wit and/or nerves of steel.
The Adult is, shall we say Ged of Earthsea, or Sheridan of Babylon Five, a citizen of the World. The World has mysteries for the hero to penetrate, a situation for him to be responsible for, a society for him to belong to. It's a rational world when all is said and done; as the hero advances, the mysteries retreat. But the adult in turn finally leaves the mysteries alone.
The Elder is the Initiate, not belonging to the world but to the Mysteries themselves. He has given himself fully to them, and so although he is often the one who opens the way for a hero, in the end he has to leave the world alone and return into the mysteries. And the supreme example in SF, I was claiming, is Doctor Who. In fantasy, Gandalf. Sure, traditionally Merlin, but Gandalf is a realized character.
If the Mysteries - like this is the whole Sense of Wonder dimension - if they are in some sense bigger than the world, and not mere circumstances within it, then the Elder is more than another participant, he's Destiny Incarnate for the brief time he steps on the stage. Storm Crow is a natural role for him.
You certainly need a deft touch to make an Elder type the central character, though. I don't think there's ever been anyone quite like the Doctor.
Get well, write stories.
Re: Cool as the crack of dawn, I'll give you that...
Date: 2005-09-22 10:05 pm (UTC)he's Destiny Incarnate for the brief time he steps on the stage. Storm Crow is a natural role for him.
Double-checking the quotes, I find that they actually made an explicit reference to "the storm" in "Rose":
Clive: The Doctor is a legend woven throughout history. When disaster
comes, he's there. He brings a storm in his wake. He has one
constant companion.
Rose: Who's that?
Clive: Death!
They also made a reference in "The Parting of the Ways" when the Doctor mentions that the Daleks call him "The Oncoming Storm" (I think that's a New Adventures reference).
You certainly need a deft touch to make an Elder type the central character, though. I don't think there's ever been anyone quite like the Doctor.
Indeed! One reason it is hard to make an Elder a central character, is because usually the central character is the point-of-view character, and one can hardly be Mysterious if the story is from your point of view. In Doctor Who, the point of view is that of the companions.
Actually, that makes me wonder -- could one argue that Morgaine in the Morgaine stories is an Elder figure who is a central character? She is certainly someone from Beyond, who comes and takes the lesser hero into the Beyond with her; it is her quest that they are on, not his. She's also a Storm Crow in that she goes from danger into danger, dragging death in her wake. Though not quite the same way as the Doctor or Gandalf.
But usually, the Mysterious Other has to remain on stage for only a brief time, or it loses its mystery. For example, Methos in Highlander, he's certainly a Mysterious Elder, but he's not the central character by any means. He may be the central character in some people's fanfic, but not on the show. He's introduced as a legend, who becomes less legendary, then another twist in the tale makes him an even more legendary legend, and even though he's a friend of the hero, one of the cool things about the writing and acting of Methos is that his motives remain ambiguous: he is still a mystery.
Get well, write stories.
8-) I will.
Re: Cool as the crack of dawn, I'll give you that...
Date: 2005-09-23 12:13 am (UTC)Been a long time since I read the chronicles of Morgaine. But yeah.
I think she's one of those characters who would have been content with a humble adult role, but the mysteries have reached out and laid a Doom on her. And so now she belongs to them, and cannot escape. Anyone who gets involved with her becomes entangled with intentions foreign to humanity. (It's a very common horror story plot.)
Now Methos. Remember I've never seen the TV series. But consider the terms of the Mystery:
* Warriors will be made immortal.
* They will be condemned to battle until only one stands.
* This will bring forth the Quickening.
With Methos, another term is added:
* If the warriors mess this up, the atrocious barbarism of ancient times will come back.
But Methos has declined both the Quickening and the barbarism, right? Immortality is the only portion of the mystery which claims him, and he's made his own peace with it. Like an old gunslinger, he's passed through the lure and triumphs of the deadly game, and now he can regard it from the outside. He might still work as an initiate of the mystery, but the only aspect of the mystery which he has really mastered is the tournament. So he's circumscribed in his spooky otherness. With a newcomer to the tournament, yes he'd fill the Elder role.
I've forgotten the name of the telepath in B5, who became the pawn and apprentice of Kosh. There was a lot of potential in her story.
Re: Cool as the crack of dawn, I'll give you that...
Date: 2005-09-23 01:18 am (UTC)With a newcomer to the tournament, yes he'd fill the Elder role.
Not so much, really. Duncan is a better teacher than Methos is. Methos doesn't really want the responsibility. And he actually doesn't want to be looked up to as an Elder either; he keeps on saying he's just a guy without any special wisdom just because he's the oldest Immortal. Whether he has any special wisdom or not.
But you're right, he comes across as less Other than the Doctor.
Some day I'd like to write a story in which Methos and the Doctor keep on encountering each other over the years, in a twisted time-tangled way. Except that it would probably be too much work to figure out the different relative time-lines of all the encounters; which incarnation he meets first, at what point the Doctor figures out Methos is immortal, at what point Methos figures out that the Doctor is alien and regenerates...
It would be interesting, though.