Sheol it is not

[kerravonsen]

So, here we have the conclusion of the 2-parter The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit.

Good:
Continued on with the tension, yes! And crawling through ventilation shafts, and people nobly dying, and all the trappings, again, of a classic Sci-Fi/Horror movie.

The "itch at the back of the brain", the "urge to fall", that was nicely creepy.

The chilling litany of fears, that was well done. "You know me -- the one who destroyed his own people." It's kind of the whole "the best lie is the half-truth" thing. And then the "don't let it terrify you, work together!" pep talk of the Doctor's; and then Rose trying to keep them all on track in figuring out what to do next. She's good when she's not thinking about herself.

The Doctor reasoning out what he should do, the trap within a trap, and his assertion that Rose wasn't a victim.

Bad:
Again, a lacklustre title.

I got rather irritated about all these people wondering whether the Beast was "the real Devil", being all terrified in case the answer was "yes". Maybe it's because I'm a Believer, but, like, so what? There is a real Devil, and that wasn't it. Just an extremely powerful, evil being who was telepathic, lied well, and liked terrifying people & boasting theatrically.

I didn't quite catch what the Doctor said he believed.

"And then I'd have to kill Rose." So, like, all the other people mean nothing? That is continuing to irritate me.

The bolt-gun can destroy a spaceship window? And then a shield can mend same window in time, and they aren't all passing out from lack of oxygen?

So the TARDIS has a tractor beam, and can escape from a black hole? The Beast was rather stupid then, it should have tried to force everyone to escape in the TARDIS.

Other thoughts:
Yes, I figured he'd find the TARDIS down there.
Yes, I figured that the Beast was hiding out in Toby.

The "before the universe" thing... I think there's reference to that in some of the NA books, which toss out a theory that before this universe existed, there was the "big crunch" of the previous universe, a universe which had different laws, laws of magic, and that there were some beings who tried to survive beyond the death of their universe, and into ours, and this may or may not have driven them mad...


Well, I did say I would have to wait until I'd seen the whole thing. For some reason, I'm feeling rather "so what?" about it. Perhaps a let-down after the build-up.

Comments

[vilakins.livejournal.com]

there were some beings who tried to survive beyond the death of their universe, and into ours, and this may or may not have driven them mad...

I like that explanation, though it wouldn't be 'before time' then, but 'in the time before this time'.

[kerravonsen]

though it wouldn't be 'before time' then, but 'in the time before this time'

Which is probably one reason why the Doctor wouldn't buy the claim.

[vilakins.livejournal.com]

Yes. It doesn't make sense anyway, with drawings of smaller human-like creatures imprisoning the beast.

[kerravonsen]

All we know for certain is that the Beast was older than the Time Lords, because of the writing thing.

[jhall1.livejournal.com]

And why didn't they kill it rather than imprison it? (Beyond the obvious that, if they had, there would have been no story.) It might have been hard to kill, but I'm sure that thrwing it into the black hole would have done.

Stiil, all in all a very good story.

[vilakins.livejournal.com]

thrwing it into the black hole would have done

Exactly! A bit like that fic I read where the Council of Elrond decided to get the eagles to drop the ring into the fire: end of story.

[jhall1.livejournal.com]

Doh! :)

The only counter-arguments I can come up with are not very convincing:

1. That they wouldn't have been willing, seeing it as an affair of men and elves and dwarves, and nothing to do with them.
2. That even in the short amount of time the trip would take, which eagle took the Ring would have fallen under its spell.
3. That Mordor was so evil that eagles would not or dare not enter it until the destruction of the Ring removed most of its danger.

[vilakins.livejournal.com]

#2 was posited at the time and the others are likely too, though I can imagine Gandalf would talk them into it.

[jhall1.livejournal.com]

BTW, did you (or anyone else for that matter) happen to read a short story by Bob Shaw called - IIRC - "The Gray Man". The premise was very similar to that in the Dr Who story. Very powerful evil entity has been marooned on a deserted asteroid for countless millenia, until a human survey team happens along and it unleashes its powerful telepathic powers against them. The way in which the day is saved is very neat, but I won't commit the faux pas of revealing it. :)

[vilakins.livejournal.com]

I've read some Bob Shaw, but not that one.

[watervole.livejournal.com]

Of course, the winged Nazgul might have got the eagles... Giant eagles are a bit obvious when in the heart of enemy territory.

[kerravonsen]

Yes, I wondered that myself. If I was a giant eagle, I wouldn't want to have to fight off a winged Nazgul.

[vilakins.livejournal.com]

True!

[kerravonsen]

And why didn't they kill it rather than imprison it?

Um, because they were so pissed off at it they wanted to punish it?

[watervole.livejournal.com]

So true. I also wondered why they took all that effort to kill it instead of chucking it in the black hole. (although one has to ask the same question regarding the Biblical Satan and maybe the answers are related)

[kalypso-v.livejournal.com]

I think the Doctor said he believed he hadn't seen everything yet.

And later on - I may have to rewatch this to check - I think he said something like "if there's one thing I believe in, it's Rose", which I don't take to mean "Rose is the only thing I believe in" but "Rose is one thing I believe in quite strongly, and that's relevant to my current dilemma." (cf Fenric when everyone has to find something they have faith in to keep out the Haemovores, and the Doctor lists all his companions; but most of them come up with something to focus on.)

One thing that annoys me is the way he's so illogical about this "save the universe or save Rose" thing - it was most obvious in World War Three when he was dithering about whether to blow up Downing Street. Because if the Slitheen blew up the entire planet, at a moment when he couldn't bundle Rose into the Tardis, she was going to die anyway. So the real question is "if Rose is going to die either way, do I care enough to save the rest of the human race?" to which the answer is pretty clearly yes. In this case, I suppose Rose might have survived being in the same rocket as the Beast, or the general mayhem and destruction the Beast was presumably planning to unleash once he got out of the rocket, but I wouldn't have rated her chances very highly.

But yes, the current emphasis on Rose is silly, and already makes no sense within this season when it's been clear he could have equally close ties to Sarah Jane and Reinette, and will make even less sense once she's replaced and he has to do the same sort of thing for the new one. Oh dear, I can already imagine RTD deciding that there have been several stories in which "companion has to come to terms emotionally with regenerated Doctor" but now it is time to explore the trauma of the Doctor coming to terms emotionally with a Companion Who Is Not Rose.

Anyway, in the Platonic Form of Doctor Who, there is none of this OTP nonsense. And Rose gets to be practical and independent, like she was in this story, rather than annoying and full of herself like she's been all too often this season.

[kerravonsen]

One thing that annoys me is the way he's so illogical about this "save the universe or save Rose" thing - it was most obvious in World War Three when he was dithering about whether to blow up Downing Street. Because if the Slitheen blew up the entire planet, at a moment when he couldn't bundle Rose into the Tardis, she was going to die anyway. So the real question is "if Rose is going to die either way, do I care enough to save the rest of the human race?" to which the answer is pretty clearly yes.

I think there's some relevance to something that communicator linked to recently, about investigating people's reactions to moral dilemmas: and that, while logic might say that there's no difference between switching trolleys to kill one person to save more, and pushing someone off a bridge to save other people, there is certainly a difference in people's rections to the two different dilemmas: the difference being whether you actively choose to kill someone to save others, and whether the person was going to be killed by something else. Which is exactly the kind of dilemma which was facing the Doctor in both cases. Because in Downing Street, he would have killed Rose, rather than the Slitheen killing her. And in The Satan Pit, he would have (or felt he would have) killed Rose by turning off the gravity field.

And he's irrationally obsessed with her. It feels more irrational here, because, as you say, it makes no sense within this season when it's been clear he could have equally close ties to Sarah Jane and Reinette wheras at least with Nine, it doesn't feel so odd because (a) he's still angsting about Gallifrey and (b) there isn't anyone else there for him besides Rose; no previous companions etc.

"if there's one thing I believe in, it's Rose", which I don't take to mean "Rose is the only thing I believe in" but "Rose is one thing I believe in quite strongly, and that's relevant to my current dilemma." (cf Fenric when everyone has to find something they have faith in to keep out the Haemovores, and the Doctor lists all his companions; but most of them come up with something to focus on.)


Agreed. He's stating his belief that Rose isn't a victim, and that she might be able to actively help the situation, instead of passively waiting to die.

[kalypso-v.livejournal.com]

Actually, it didn't occur to me at the time that he was expecting Rose to sort things (though I suppose RTD might assume that given The Parting of the Ways), more that "Rose will go down fighting, and expect me to do the same." But yes, Rose as not-victim does seem to be an important element of the belief in question.