Truth and Linguistics

[kerravonsen]

Interesting quote from the book I'm currently reading(*):
Their [human] language is equally confusing. Who can believe what they say if every word has several meanings?

Which makes one wonder... for of course, in human languages, one can lie while telling the truth. Yet what a poor language it would be if words had only one meaning.

Does poetry lie in ambiguity? Or does poetry lie in ambiguity?

(*) "City of Pearl" by Karen Traviss

Comments

[lizamanynames.livejournal.com]

Does poetry lie in ambiguity? Or does poetry lie in ambiguity?

*grins* Yes.

[vilakins.livejournal.com]

City of Pearl? Is this a sequel to the wonderful City of Diamond by Jane Emerson, who I know has been ill? Avon, Vila, and Soolin avatars!

And speaking of avatars, yes, Duv Galeni is Avonic in Brothers in Arms but I've just found a blonde Servalan in The Vor Game: Livia Niu (wonderful name) AKA Cavilo. :-)

[kerravonsen]

City of Pearl? Is this a sequel to the wonderful City of Diamond by Jane Emerson, who I know has been ill?

No, absolutely nothing to do with that, apart from the coincidence of having "City of" in the title. I haven't heard of "City of Diamond".

[vilakins.livejournal.com]

I recommend it highly--if you can find it. The first few scenes made me think, "Oh no, not another feudal aristocracy in space," but it's much more. The ship--and galactic--society is so complex, much of it's left merely hinted at and the reader wants more. Fascinating universe and vivid, engaging characters. Also, neither they nor the story is predictable. :-)

What's Pearl about then? Presumably not a city-sized spaceship?

BTW I'm enjoying the Vorkosigan stories a lot, despite the rampant said-phobia (I really hate 'opined' 'intoned', 'allowed', and 'supplied' in particular). On their strength, I borrowed The Curse of Chalion but it's slow and plodding, the characters lack the vibrant life of the Vorverse ones, and the conversation is so stilted. Just because people lived in the past (OK, a fantasy feudal one) doesn't mean they didn't speak colloquially. Have you read that?

[kerravonsen]

Fascinating universe and vivid, engaging characters.

Sounds intriguing. Mind you, feudal aristocracies in space can be interesting, if you've got Byzantine politics to go with it. Look at Dune...

What's Pearl about then? Presumably not a city-sized spaceship?

Definitely not! 8-)
I've just finished it, and I really like it. I kept on expecting it to fall into well-worn SF tropes, and it kept on pleasantly surprising me. I don't really want to give examples of the surprises, because that would spoil it.

The scenario in the book is that it's a couple of centuries hence. There's cyberpunkish technology, but that's just part of the background, which also involves mega-corps and eco-terrorism. Our Heroine is a cop who is a month away from retirement. And suddenly she's assigned to a mission to go off to another starsystem, 75 years away (cryo, no FTL, 150 years round trip) to find out what's happened to a colony of Christian Fundamentalists whom everyone assumed had perished, but apparently they haven't. And then when she gets there she finds that the humans aren't the only ones there... three intelligent alien species, and not all of them like each other, and the humans caught in the middle... But it wasn't the politics that appealed to me, it was the characters.

I'm going to buy the sequel tomorrow.

I borrowed The Curse of Chalion ... Have you read that?

Oh yes. I liked it a lot, because I really liked the main character. I didn't find it plodding at all, I'm at home with archaic language -- in fact, I find it jarring if something which is set in a feudal landscape has modern language. It was an intriguing bit of world-building too, since it wasn't your bog-standard fantasy world (most fantasy worlds are either superficially Christian or rampantly pantheistic, and this was neither).
I didn't like "Paladin of Souls" as much, mainly because Cazaril wasn't there!

[vilakins.livejournal.com]

I feel differently about language. They speak their own (Ibran or whatever) so why can't it be 'translated' into modern English for the reader? And Cazaril isn't in the next one? But... but... I like him most of all! The Roknari looks interesting though.

City of Pearl sounds fascinating, esp if it was the characters that appeal (I'm not thrilled by mega-corps or eco-terrorism). I'll add it to my list of books to read. :-)

[mistraltoes.livejournal.com]

Not like Chalion? But... but... I found it deeply absorbing. Cazaril is wonderful! But then, I prefer fantasy, and have no interest in the Vorkosigan books.

[kerravonsen]

I'm wondering if it's the formality of the language which vilakins is finding to be a barrier rather than part of the world-building.

[vilakins.livejournal.com]

It is! I also get tired of sexist societies being the norm in fantasy.

[kerravonsen]

And yet when people try to do the reverse, and write matriarchies (in SF or F), they usually look like oppressive patriarchies with the labels switched. Which is just as bad.

[vilakins.livejournal.com]

Agreed. That's sexist too. What's wrong with equality, as Bujold has in her Betan society? In my future (unwritten original novels) people are judged by their ability, not their sex.

[vilakins.livejournal.com]

I'm persisting with it. I do like Cazaril (wise and gentle man) but I feel oddly detached from most of the characters. I think the formal language has that effect on me. It's an interesting world, but I do wish people could imagine something other than the hackneyed old feudal sexist society; she uses that model for Barrayar too. The religion is fresh and interesting though.

Don't worry if I don't respond for a while; I'm off to bed now. [realises] But what are you doing up?

[mistraltoes.livejournal.com]

::scratches head:: I suppose one difference is that I like formal language a lot, and it seems particularly appropriate here since most characters are members of the nobility, rather than the everyday folk. I also tend to like books where religious faith is portrayed as a positive, meaningful part of the characters' lives.

And I'm up because I'm too lazy to go to bed. Going now.

[vilakins.livejournal.com]

Just thought I'd tell you both that I'm enjoying 'Curse of Chalion' a lot more now. I liked Cazaril from the start, but it seemed to take a while to get going, though I was also fascinated by Umegat when he appeared. Even more so now that Dondo's dead (avoiding spoilers here) and things are getting very interesting. The religious aspect is very inventive.

Is the sequel worth getting if Cazaril isn't in it? Do any of these characters appear?

[kerravonsen]

The sequel is probably worth getting. While I didn't enjoy it as much as the first one, it did take one of the minor characters from the first book and took them on a journey (a physical one, and a journey of self) and made them a lot more interesting... And the religion got even more inventive. And it puts paid to the idea that only the young have adventures (grin).

[vilakins.livejournal.com]

I'll give it a go next year. When you say 'more interesting', you imply they weren't so much before, so it can't be Umegat; pity. The only old person I can think of is Nan or the thumbless groom.

She does have a thing with hands, doesn't she? All her characters use them a lot.

[kerravonsen]

I'm trying not to spoil, especially as you haven't finished the first book, and my cryptic remarks are probably just confusing you. No, the person isn't *old*, they're just not *young*. I can't really say why "more interesting" because it would be a spoiler.

[vilakins.livejournal.com]

OK, you may have sucked me in. :-) I'm hoping to have at least a month off: lots of reading time!

[mistraltoes.livejournal.com]

One of the reasons French is often used for legal documents is because it is so precise. But English is rich in texture and metaphor because of the multiple meanings and sources, which makes it a wonderful artistic medium.

[kerravonsen]

Which makes me very glad to be a native-speaker of English.

[reveilles.livejournal.com]

oooohhh... ::bows deeply:: very clever. Topical AND profound...

Btw, I've enjoyed your thank-you lists!

[kerravonsen]

Thank you!

Btw, I've enjoyed your thank-you lists!

Oh, good. I'm doing them mainly for my own benefit, to keep me focused upwards (rather than inwards and downwards and darkwards) and while I could have done that without posting on LJ, having a (small) audience has two purposes: (a) it keeps me disciplined, instead of slacking off and (b) it is hopefully encouraging to others.

[kerravonsen]

Oh, and I forgot to say, it has been worrying me a little that those on that filter might be getting a little annoyed at the daily spamming of those lists, so it's encouraging to see that there are at least two people I'm not annoying...

[mistraltoes.livejournal.com]

Excuse, please? I don't see those as having any relationship to spam. They're things you want to say, and it's your journal. Them what doesn't want to see 'em can scroll past.

[reveilles.livejournal.com]

Great for the focus and (a), and it's a good reminder for me to be thankful and it's encouraging to see you being thankful, given the trials and struggles that you're going through every day!

I just recently heard a sermon where the pastor said that we don't have to be thankful that bad stuff happened to us--we can be honest with God--but we should be thankful that through it all, our Dad is still with us and He loves us and He's going to make something beautiful come out of us and the whole situation if we let Him. That just felt so much more real to me than the way my own father would shout "Hallelujah!" when he would accidentally hurt himself while working in the basement or something. That just felt like forced, fake praise--like the word was just a Christianized version of a secular expletive.

So to see you thankful...that's beautiful. :)

[kerravonsen]

and it's encouraging to see you being thankful, given the trials and struggles that you're going through every day!

It was someone in my small-group, who came over one day out of the blue (after I'd been saying how hard things were), she came over to encourage me, and told me of her own struggles, and how one thing that helped her get through was, at the end of each day, listing five things to thank God for (though it didn't have to be exactly five) and that struck me as a really good thing to do for myself. And I do think it's been helping.

we don't have to be thankful that bad stuff happened to us--we can be honest with God--but we should be thankful that through it all

Yeah, my pastor said something similar: it's "thank God in all things, not thank God for all things"

So sometimes it gets down to the bare "thank you Lord that I'm still breathing" (which is more significant for me, given the nature of my chronic illness)... there's always something to be thankful for, even if it's really simple things.

[reveilles.livejournal.com]

So sometimes it gets down to the bare "thank you Lord that I'm still breathing"...

Yeah, me too. Sometimes I feel so rotten or wiped out or generally soured that I end up there too...and then the perspective makes me think that maybe it isn't all so bad, especially since, ultimately, the struggle is temporary (even if it seems interminable. :)

I love this song:

Turn Your Eyes Upon Jesus
(c) Hel­en H. Lem­mel 1922

O soul, are you weary and troubled?
No light in the darkness you see?
There’s a light for a look at the Savior,
And life more abundant and free!

Refrain

Turn your eyes upon Jesus,
Look full in His wonderful face,
And the things of earth will grow strangely dim,
In the light of His glory and grace.

Through death into life everlasting
He passed, and we follow Him there;
Over us sin no more hath dominion—
For more than conquerors we are!

Refrain

His Word shall not fail you—He promised;
Believe Him, and all will be well:
Then go to a world that is dying,
His perfect salvation to tell!

Refrain

[kerravonsen]

I do recognise that hymn, though I can't recall the tune at the minute. "And the things of earth will grow strangely dim" (nods)

and then the perspective makes me think that maybe it isn't all so bad, especially since, ultimately, the struggle is temporary

"To live is Christ, to die is gain."

[reveilles.livejournal.com]

If you're willing to sit through a not-too-terrible MIDI recording of it, I got the lyrics off this page.