As Long As It Gives You Comfort

[kerravonsen]

Whenever I hear the above phrase, I'm not sure whether I should roll my eyes or grind my teeth.
"As long as it gives you comfort" is a phrase used by non-Christians towards Christians in order to demonstrate their tolerance and enlightenment. What it really demonstrates is patronising smugness. "Let those silly little Christians cling to their harmless delusions, their crutches, because they aren't brave or strong enough to face reality."

Bollocks. Bullshit. Rubbish. Three hundred times NO.

Let's put the accusations of cowardice aside, and tackle the question of delusions. Delusions are not harmless. Delusions are lies you tell yourself. And all lies are harmful. Lies are a turning away from reality, and reality is gonna slap you in the face, kick your arse, make you fall flat when you trip over it.

Lies are Bad News.

Perhaps they think Christianity is a harmless delusion because it deals with the Afterlife and thus will never founder on the reefs of reality, seeing as nobody can prove the existence of the Afterlife one way or another.

You know what? I will fully and happily admit that the learned scholars may be mistaken in interpreting the Bible to say that there is an Afterlife, a Heaven and a Hell... and that it doesn't make a shred of difference as to whether I follow Christ or not. I mean, it's a win/win scenario. Either there is an afterlife, in which case I'll go to Heaven and rejoin my loved ones, or there isn't, and I won't be around after death to care. In either case, in this life I am missing my dear departed, and I will keep on missing them until the day I die. Does the thought of meeting them again in Heaven give me comfort? I cannot deny that it does. But it is the icing on the cake; it is not the cake itself.

The cake, the Good News, is that we are reconciled with God in the here-and-now. We don't have to wait, it's already here! It isn't "pie in the sky, by-and-by, when I die" (as an Elder I know used to say). Um, yeah, but what does that mean, exactly? After all, if God doesn't exist, then that's another delusion. Does believing that I have a good relationship with God give me "comfort"? I don't think "comfort" is the right word. How can a fish explain the water it swims in?

I'm not sure that anyone could persuade me that God doesn't exist. It is an axiomatic part of my existence. A while back, after having one of those "what kind of proof would make you believe in God" conversations, I pondered the inverse: what kind of proof could make me disbelieve in God? And I couldn't think of anything. Not one single thing. I realised that I could no more disbelieve in God than I could disbelieve in gravity. And if you say, "but you can't point to God, so he doesn't exist", then I will respectfully remark that one cannot point to gravity either, one can only point to the effect gravity has on things. Likewise, the Spirit moves like the wind, changing things in His wake.

I wonder what would happen if I said "As long as it gives you comfort" to a non-Christian? I think I'd have to be pretty annoyed to do so, because I'd be saying it sarcastically. There's no way I'd say it straight.

Comments

[watervole]

Please read in thoughtful and friendly mode (because text has no emotional content and this is me thinking thoughts aloud, but in no way trying to tell you what to think and is not intended as patronising or critical).

I think I'm not a Christian for exactly the same reason (albeit in reverse) that you are a Christian.

You, I think, have have a genuine sense of the presence of God. And I don't.
At one time in my life, I did make a genuine attempt to reach out and open myself to any kind of connection/awareness, but found nothing.

There are many logical reasons why I don't think there is a god, but I would happily reconsider the arguments if I had any 'feeling' that God was there.

You are a fish in water and aware of the water.

I don't believe, and probably never will, but that fact that an intelligent friend of mine holds this belief, means that I am more willing to listen when people discuss religion.

I think I give your views more credence because you don't believe because of the promise of an afterlife. It's not a belief of wanting a reward, it's a belief of respect/thanks. Does that make sense?

[kerravonsen]

There are many logical reasons why I don't think there is a god, but I would happily reconsider the arguments if I had any 'feeling' that God was there.

I'm rather curious what your logical reasons are. I suspect that a number of them would fall into the category of, for me, "Yeah, that's a thing which is puzzling/horrible and I don't understand it, but my not understanding it doesn't make God not-exist."

You, I think, have have a genuine sense of the presence of God. And I don't.
At one time in my life, I did make a genuine attempt to reach out and open myself to any kind of connection/awareness, but found nothing.

I would say that I have, from time to time, been blessed with feeling the presence of God, but it is really rather rare. It is not the same thing as the way I know in my gut that He exists. Most of the time to me, He feels very far away. As if He is busy elsewhere. If I depended on that blessed rare feeling of His presence, I would be a very fickle believer indeed. I think some poor souls are indeed caught up in the emotional high that can happen in worship, and when they don't feel that, they feel lost, and they can't endure when the hard times come, and come they will, inevitably.

One of the peculiar things is... it isn't "if you seek Him you will find Him" - no, it is "if you seek Him, He will find you."

It's not a belief of wanting a reward, it's a belief of respect/thanks. Does that make sense?

Yes, absolutely. *hugs*

One of the most horrible, insidious heresies of the modern age is "prosperity doctrine". It basically takes a few isolated verses from the Bible that talk about God blessing us, and interpret that to mean that God wants to make us rich. So it isn't even about wanting a deferred reward in heaven, these people want a reward right now! Ugh. Soooo many things that they are totally ignoring, including the number of times the Bible rails against that very kind of thinking. Ugh.

[watervole]

I think the 'virtuous pagan' problem was always difficult for me. Does a person who lives a good life, but never worships the Christian god (possibly never heard of him), go to heaven.

I suspect for you, the answer might be yes, but for others it would be no.

Then there was the married vicar who was to marry Richard and myself - I'd known him every since I was a little girl. A few weeks before our wedding, he ran off with another man's wife (I knew that family too). If he was a vicar, presumably he had genuine belief, and yet it meant so little/was so shallow, that he could abandon his wife and daughter and persuade another women to abandon her family. Could he have done that if he really cared about God? I was already very dubious about whether there was a god, but must have had some lingering questions as I don't think I'd have agreed to a church wedding otherwise. Mr Culliford probably banged the final nail into the coffin.

However, that's an emotional reason and not a logical question.

I suppose logical questions also include: "Why is much of the Old Testament so violent and vindictive?" (I assume that much of it was written as propaganda for a people who needed stories that worked for them - I only have a problem when people assert it as literal truth)

Why was Jehovah originally only a God for the Jews? If he cared for everyone, why not be welcoming of all from the start?

One of the things I love about you (and I do mean love) is that we have very different beliefs, yet we can talk with the genuine aim of understanding rather than looking down on each other.

Prosperity Doctrine?

That has to skip over a lot of the Bible. "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of the needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven" Quoting from memory, but I think it's pretty close.

And that bit about taking all you have an giving it to the poor....

[kerravonsen]

I think the 'virtuous pagan' problem was always difficult for me. Does a person who lives a good life, but never worships the Christian god (possibly never heard of him), go to heaven.

I suspect for you, the answer might be yes, but for others it would be no.

Actually, my answer is neither yes nor no, it is "I don't know, and I'm okay with that." Because it isn't possible to know, and all answers to this question are mere speculation. The bible is silent on this issue, and it is impossible for it to be other than silent, because all the "virtuous pagans" it tells of (for example, the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts) are people who are in the process of encountering God (else they wouldn't have a story in the bible!)

Yes, there is half an answer in Romans, where it basically states that it's obvious by looking at nature that there is a Creator, so there is no excuse... but they still haven't heard of Yawheh, and do not know His laws. My speculation in this regard is that God might allow their own conscience be their judge... which would mean that they'd be pretty much sunk anyway, because nobody, not nobody, is capable of being perfect (except Christ). Then there's C.S. Lewis's speculation, which gives a little more hope than that; that if they have been faithful to their own gods -- to whatever names they gave to the Creator -- then God will take that as worship of Himself under another name. If you see what I mean.

I still think that it is not possible to know.

Why is much of the Old Testament so violent and vindictive?

Because wars are violent? And political histories tend to focus on wars.
As for the "vindictive" I suspect that one person's "vindictive" is another person's "justice". I don't know enough history of that era to figure out whether it was vindictive by the standards of the time, as distinct from the standards of today.

One fascinating historical tidbit that sticks in my mind is the origins of "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth". Yes, it is quoted in the New Testament as a standard that needs to be risen above, but what most people don't know is that when it was written, in the law code of Hammurabi (a Babylonian king), it was an improvement on the customs of the day, because it limited retribution to something equal to what was lost, rather than, say, killing someone's entire family because one of them murdered one of your family.

Context is important.

Why was Jehovah originally only a God for the Jews? If he cared for everyone, why not be welcoming of all from the start?

Well, He was welcoming of all from the start, when there was only Adam and Eve. Then the Fall happened. But He had a Plan, which was a very long-term one, starting small, with just one man, Abraham, a man who became a nation, a nation that was (supposed to be) a light to the Gentiles, to lead them back to God. God didn't choose the Jews, He made the Jews. I guess then the question devolves back to "Why did God choose Abraham instead of somebody else?" Dunno. Don't think we can ever know.

I did warn you that a lot of my answers would be "I don't know" ! 8-P

[deird1]

I would say that I have, from time to time, been blessed with feeling the presence of God, but it is really rather rare. It is not the same thing as the way I know in my gut that He exists. Most of the time to me, He feels very far away. As if He is busy elsewhere. If I depended on that blessed rare feeling of His presence, I would be a very fickle believer indeed. I think some poor souls are indeed caught up in the emotional high that can happen in worship, and when they don't feel that, they feel lost, and they can't endure when the hard times come, and come they will, inevitably.

This, absolutely.

I think one of the things I found tricky about my original church (and the associated faith practices) was that when I was feeling distant from God people would say "Just go on doing what you should do, and eventually you'll feel it again." Except "doing what I should do", as far as I could tell, meant "trying to feel as if I feel close to God". So I'd be sitting there, trying to feel more, because feeling was the main thing I knew.

Whereas these days, I'm doing a whole lot more liturgy. And so I can keep on praying prayers that other people have designed to be really good prayers, and keep on observing the Christian calendar, and keep on taking communion... and, eventually, I come out the other side.

But you're right - the "high" of feeling God's presence is rather beside the point.

[selenay]

And so I can keep on praying prayers that other people have designed to be really good prayers, and keep on observing the Christian calendar, and keep on taking communion... and, eventually, I come out the other side.

Yes, this. It's the reason I prefer a church that uses a liturgy (I spent a couple of years in a very informal church and did not find it helpful). When I have no words of my own, someone else has written a really good prayer that says what I need. The familiar structure of communion and so on leads my thoughts and the worship and can be almost meditative, which helps a lot when His actual presence feels far away.

I worry about people who talk about always feeling the "high" of God's presence, because what will they do if that isn't there for them for a while?

From the original post: I'm not sure that anyone could persuade me that God doesn't exist. It is an axiomatic part of my existence.

This is how my faith has always been. He exists, a constant like gravity, whether I feel Him there or not. And therefore I choose to life my faith.

[kerravonsen]

Yes, this. It's the reason I prefer a church that uses a liturgy (I spent a couple of years in a very informal church and did not find it helpful).

This is rather interesting, since I was more the other way around. I was brought up Anglican, and found the liturgy deadly dull and lifeless, especially in the period where I was going to a private school which had chapel every morning and the minister there was the droning type who had no enthusiasm whatsoever. Drained all the life and love out of it.

Now... I can appreciate the beauty of the liturgy and the prayers that other people wrote, but only if I encounter it with long periods of time in between! Like, no more than once or twice a year. ;-)
My current church is a Presbyterian, which means they have the standard "hymn sandwitch" but no formal liturgy.

*de-lurking*

[sulien]

Pardon me jumping in late to this party, but your post reached out and grabbed me when I was going back through my reading page. I enjoy your posts, I just don't often comment.

When I tell someone of faith (any faith, whether it's Abrahamic or another kettle of fish entirely) that I'm glad their faith gives them comfort, I mean exactly that and I mean it from the bottom of my heart. There are many paths of spirituality and none of them suits everyone and it isn't my place to judge the one that resonates for an individual. I know people who truly believe and I am very glad that they have something that gives them such comfort.

That said, I also know people who claim to have faith and may or may not have it, but use that connection for their own ends, usually selfishly and sometimes to the detriment of others without a care for who it hurts (you truly do not want to get me started on the televangelists who take advantage of the elderly on fixed incomes like my Grandmother was). I have also met a few people who are truly freaking deluded and who twist their faith around and use it as a weapon and an excuse to wreak utter evil. The two latter types of people I just nod to and say "Uh-huh, whatever floats your boat, but I don't want to hear it" when they go off at me and I don't particularly give a rat's patoot if it pisses them off or not. That passive-aggressive crap that you've been subjected to by some doesn't cut it and it pisses me off too, quite frankly.

Not that it particularly matters, but I'm an Agnostic with a live-and-let-live attitude and lean toward animism. I started out being raised in a Pilgrim Holiness congregation and went to Baptist and Methodist churches later on, but just didn't feel faith in my heart and thought it was best to not just give lip service once I'd figured that out. I tried a few flavors of Neo-Paganism since I have always felt a very strong connection to nature, but I just don't have that faith in active deities, it just isn't there for me.

Please pardon the edit.

[delphipsmith]

I can understand why such a statement might come across as condescending and smug, and no doubt some who say it mean it that way, either consciously or unconsciously. But speaking as an atheist who also doesn't feel any need to convert others to my point of view, I can attest that that's by no means always the case. I've said those exact words to Christian friends of mine when the subject arose, and I didn't mean it as patronising nor did they take it that way -- in many cases it led to some terrific discussions. In fact, I would argue that it's the only honest response one can make to any profession of a faith that one doesn't share (assuming of course that it comes from someone who's not a random stranger with whom one has the desire or obligation to engage). I have no wish to oppose or change such beliefs, but neither can I in good conscience be silent and allow the other person to assume that I share them.

To say that faith must either be true, or a harmful delusion, is I think a false dichotomy. There is a third choice, which you explain very well: the win-win situation. That is, if such beliefs are true then they are true (a win), and if they are not true they can still be a source of help and comfort and inspire people to great and beautiful and marvelous things (also a win). I don't think my Christian friends are suffering from a delusion; I think they've chosen a set of beliefs for reasons that may be obscure to me, but that clearly are deeply meaningful to them, and I respect that.

I wonder what would happen if I said "As long as it gives you comfort" to a non-Christian? I think I'd have to be pretty annoyed to do so, because I'd be saying it sarcastically. There's no way I'd say it straight.

If you said it to me, I'd probably smile and say, "It does, so thanks!" :) I believe that people are entitled (and indeed should be encouraged) to take solace and inspiration wherever they find it, in whatever form meets their needs, so long as it doesn't damage anyone else.

As Marcus Aurelius said, “Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”

[kerravonsen]

To say that faith must either be true, or a harmful delusion, is I think a false dichotomy. There is a third choice, which you explain very well: the win-win situation. That is, if such beliefs are true then they are true (a win), and if they are not true they can still be a source of help and comfort and inspire people to great and beautiful and marvelous things (also a win).

Hmmmm. You have a point, but I'm not sure how to answer it, because I'm still feeling the "true versus harmful" thing is true as well. I suppose it's... true versus neutral versus harmful. And the "true" is the surest bet, because the not-true could be Neutral Not-True or Harmful Not-True. (Ha! I sound like I'm talking about Dungeons & Dragons alignments!)

As Marcus Aurelius said, “Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”

That... seems reasonable, for the most part. IMHO, the most hostile atheists I've encountered, I don't think it is that they don't believe in God, it is that they believe that God is wicked.