Not Enough Room In This Town For Both Of Us

[kerravonsen]

I've been thinking...
Looking at my previous post, which includes the fact that Methos is my favourite Highlander character...

Why is it that some fans, when writing fanfic, feel the urge to character-assassinate (or at least, denigrate) other of the main cast of the given show -- those who aren't their favourite character -- especially when their favourite character is not the star?

I've read Methos-centric stories where Duncan is a rigid pontifical idiot (and generally called, not "Duncan" but "the Boy Scout") who rushes in where Angels fear to tread, and needs a keeper.
I've read Blair-centric stories where Jim is a complete and utter a**hole incapable of being civil to anyone, let alone Blair.
I've read Avon-centric stories where Blake is fanatical idiot who rushes in where Angels fear to tread, and needs a keeper (familiar, what?).

Why? Why? Why?

I like ensemble shows. Even when I like one character more than the others, it isn't usually by a huge margin -- and I like the show because of all the main cast working together. (Okay, so The Sentinel isn't, strictly speaking, an ensemble show -- but it's a buddy show, not a solo-star show). So why does this particular subset of fans want to attack their Hero's comrade(s)? It certainly doesn't make their Hero look better -- he already looked perfectly fine. And part of the reason why any of the above Heros look good is because of the respect that the other characters have for him -- so, like, you gonna make your Hero be more respected by making those who respect him look worthless? Strange logic, there.
No logic at all.

It's the same kind of logic that politicians apply, and then wonder why people hate them...

Fortunately, I have a lot more choice about what fanfic to read than what politicians to vote for. I still keep on occassionally running into this mud-slinging type, though, because I do like reading, for example, Methos-centric stories, and don't know that it's that kind of story until I've already started reading it.

But the phenomenon still doesn't make any sense to me.

Comments

[snowgrouse.livejournal.com]

It doesn't make sense to me either. I enjoy watching all the characters in B7 and reading stories about all of them... I'm sick of Blake-bashing and Tarrant-bashing. To me it'd be simpler just to, y'know, not write about the characters you don't like... rather than waste energy on hate-fic.

[mistraltoes.livejournal.com]

On the one hand, I do know what you're talking about, because I've seen one or two Super!Avon stories that were completely gag-inducing, so I can imagine the reverse problem.

On the other hand, some of us do actually think Blake and Duncan are right jerks all by their own selves, without having to compare them to Avon and Methos.

[kerravonsen]

I've seen one or two Super!Avon stories that were completely gag-inducing, so I can imagine the reverse problem.

Don't think this is the "reverse" problem, I think this would be an example of the problem, seeing as Super!Avon stories are the most likely kind of stories to do Blake-bashing in.
Me confused.

On the other hand, some of us do actually think Blake and Duncan are right jerks all by their own selves, without having to compare them to Avon and Methos.

Since you say "us", then I toss the glove: defend that from canon! Neither Blake nor Duncan are jerks. They might be unwise, high-handed, and Blake can be (somewhat) manipulative, but they aren't actually jerks... 8-P

[mistraltoes.livejournal.com]

Don't think this is the "reverse" problem, I think this would be an example of the problem, seeing as Super!Avon stories are the most likely kind of stories to do Blake-bashing in.
Me confused.

Yes, but either it was third season or there was insufficient Blake-bashing for me to notice.

And excuse, please, but as far as I'm concerned, being high-handed and manipulative is extremely jerksome. ;-)

[pinkdormouse.livejournal.com]

It's a tricky one at times, though. On the rare occasions I've written Blake post-Star One I've been striking a fine balance between having him bitter and/or disillusioned (heading towards his Gauda Prime characterisation), and making him unsympathetic. Fortunately I have snowgrouse to prod me into getting it right (I probably wouldn't have actually written any of my Blake ideas down if she hadn't encouraged me).

And then there's the problem of Character Opinion vs Author Opinion. If the POV character really, canonically or due to plausible plot reasons, doesn't like another character it takes a lot of skill to write their opinion while still letting the reader decide whether the character is correct or not.

Gina

[sallymn.livejournal.com]

Well, I know nothing of Duncan, but yes, Blake (and Jim for that matter) are more than capable of being perfectly, spectacularly, canonically jerk-like on occasion and oh boy do they do so (I don't have a single hero who doesn't, which probably says something about me).

Problem is, in the bashing type of story methinks kerravonsen is thinking of, they're nothing but jerks and useless wastes of space, with absolutely no redeeming qualities - in effect, setting them up as straw villains for the beatified Authorial Favourite to recognise as worthless trash and knock over on their way to Adoration (or Suffer Nobly with Many Slings and Arrows on their way to Fanfictional Sainthood - and yes, Mr Sandburg I am looking straight at you :)).

I think that the Author genuinely believes that this makes Her Favourite look better (especially when she carefully whitewashes out his jerk-like qualities. Thug Jim and Sadistic mini-Stalin Blake are usually accompanied by Saint Wimp or SuperStar).

Hey, anyone can dislike a character. I personally loathe and detest Stargate's Armybarbie and any fanfic penned by moi would have her drowning - slowly - in a vat of snakey alien soup. B7's Cally also annoys the hell out of me (I could happily send her out for moondisk litter box litter - in deep space).

But the problem for me is... Avon may not want to value and respect Blake, but he does. Blair thinks Jim's the greatest guy he's ever met, as well as the greatest Sentinel. Turning them into drivelly jerks makes Avon and Blair look like spineless (and clueless) twerps, no matter how much whitewash is applied, or how much the writer piles it on to justify her favourites hating the same people she does (when canonically they - rather unsportingly - don't :))

Plus, when one character is bashed, it tends to make me root for them as the underdog and sneer at the Authorial Favourite (and let me tell you, it's hard work making me dislike Avon and Blair...)

Bashing backfires.

[sallymn.livejournal.com]

True, true :) but by the same token, if the POV character canonically insists on liking another, despite what fans would prefer...

[mistraltoes.livejournal.com]

I agree that bashing is annoying (unless it's Tarrant; I reserve the right to bash Tarrant ::cheeky grin::). I'm just saying that it's not necessarily done to make the other character(s) look better.

[sallymn.livejournal.com]

Oh no, there are other reasons as well :) But this one is doubly annoying in that it's counterproductive.

On the other hand, I do think I said something in the tolerance thread about people must be allowed to write what they want, no matter how much I wish they wouldn't, so I guess I must at least try and be consistent, and avert my eyes from the Bash'n'Trash ones (they bash to make one eeevvviiill, and trash t'other to make him Beautiful).

[reveilles.livejournal.com]

Hey, anyone can dislike a character. I personally loathe and detest Stargate's Armybarbie and any fanfic penned by moi would have her drowning - slowly - in a vat of snakey alien soup.

Just out of curiosity: who is Armybarbie?

[izhilzha.livejournal.com]

I can't think who she'd be referring to except Carter. O_O

Huh. Honestly can't think of any female character less Barbie-like.

[reveilles.livejournal.com]

That's what I was thinking, which is why I was confused.

Carter actually has a real body and a real brain. She's not just boobs and blonde hair, and she doesn't wear tight, annoying clothes (ala Anise :-P).

[sallymn.livejournal.com]

Yep, it's whatshername carter :) and I could wax eloquent on why I think it, but kerravonsen might be a big fan, so I don't want to run off in her LJ - suffice to say I think it's sad that TV bigwigs thinks this is what makes for a strong female character.

But also, I freely admit that I took an swift (two-minutes, tops) and utter detestation of the character and actress alike (it's like two cats - one look and "I don't like youuuuuu.....") and don't claim for two seconds to be trying to be fair.

But - to go back to the point - if one had to include her or any other character in a story, I'd either try and be fair (after all, canonically everyone likes her. And Cally. And blast it, James T Kirk. So canonically, they are likeable people) or think up an excellent reason for sending them all off to Alpha Incognita for a fortnight without a radio...

[kerravonsen]

And then there's the problem of Character Opinion vs Author Opinion.
True, but as Sally pointed out, that becomes an excuse, and an invalid excuse, when in canon, Character A actually does like Character B, yet is portrayed in the story as hating and/or having complete contempt for Character B.

In Harry Potter, we have a perfect canonical example of two characters who hate each other for no good reason (Harry and Snape) and thus we have hatred depending on PoV. And true, in B7, if you are writing Avon PoV, it isn't improbable that there be a certain amount of contempt on Avon's part for Blake, but it's also canonical that Avon also has a certain amount of respect for Blake too (as well as feeling strangely drawn)... though I'd agree that the Avon - Blake relationship does have lots of wiggle room in the kind of interpretation the author throws on it, but even so, I still feel it is going too far if Blake is portrayed, even from Avon's PoV, as being a complete and utter waste of space...

Other fandoms have much less excuse than B7. Canonically, Blair likes and admires Jim. Canonically, Methos has got to have a better reason than just free beer to keep on hanging around Duncan (especially as hanging around Duncan can get to be a rather hazardous pasttime). Canonically, Jack and Daniel are friends. And so on.

[kerravonsen]

But also, I freely admit that I took an swift (two-minutes, tops) and utter detestation of the character and actress alike (it's like two cats - one look and "I don't like youuuuuu.....") and don't claim for two seconds to be trying to be fair.

And I can guess what those particular two minutes were, if one is referring to the first episode, where Carter appears. A perfect example of TV bigwigs not having a clue, I'd say.

But she did get better, and still managed not to get relegated to the Stargate equivalent of teleport duty, which one can't say for Cally and Jenna...

[kerravonsen]

if one had to include her or any other character in a story, I'd either try and be fair (after all, canonically everyone likes her. And Cally. And blast it, James T Kirk.

Captain Kirk. Very good point. Can be sooo annoying. Except I don't think I've actually read any Kirk-bashing stories, though I've read a number of parodies, for whom is a prime candidate...

[izhilzha.livejournal.com]

And I can guess what those particular two minutes were, if one is referring to the first episode, where Carter appears. A perfect example of TV bigwigs not having a clue, I'd say.

Well, yeah, and that's forgiveable. What *isn't* (an Carter's not my fav character) is not giving her a chance after that. *If* sallymn kept watching the show, that is. [and if you did, I have to ask what you thought about Dr. Janet Fraiser.]

[sallymn.livejournal.com]

No, actually, it wasn't - it was a Maybourne episode, that I remember. But I have a feeling any would have done it.

And now I think I want to wax even more eloquent on the original topic on my own LJ...

[mistraltoes.livejournal.com]

In Harry Potter, we have a perfect canonical example of two characters who hate each other for no good reason (Harry and Snape) and thus we have hatred depending on PoV.

Hm. I'd say there's plenty of reason there. You might say not a good reason, but then I'd have to ask is there ever any good reason to hate somebody? To Harry, Snape is a *really* mean teacher. We haven't been filled in as well on Snape's thoughts about Harry, but at the very least Harry is a reminder of some extremely painful memories for Snape.

[kerravonsen]

Yes, they have reasons, but they aren't very good ones... (though after OOTP they have more reason...)

[sallymn.livejournal.com]

She was okay, about the same level of okayness as the rest :)