Snape Would Probably Think That Fandom Was Full Of Gryffindors

[kerravonsen]

There's been a lot of fail and outrage in fandom recently.

1. There is FAIL.
2. OUTRAGE ensues.
3. Failer becomes defensive and perpetrates more FAIL.
4. OUTRAGE doubles.
5. Failer's friends protest and perpetrate additional FAIL.
6. OUTRAGE triples.
7. Optimistic fools wonder aloud why we can't all just be friends.
8. OUTRAGE quadruples, this time directed at those who are outrageous enough not to join in the OUTRAGE.

I wish, I just wish that for once, the cycle would be cut off before step 3. Six words: "I'm sorry. It won't happen again."

I am not an optimistic fool, but in many things I am a pragmatist. Or perhaps I simply have different goals. I would hope that the goal of the OUTRAGE is to prevent FAIL. To change behaviour. Anger is a legitimate reaction to FAIL. When it becomes excessive, however, it not only becomes unreasonable, but it becomes ineffective, indeed counter-productive at the goal of preventing FAIL. And we get Step 5 and beyond.

We also get a chilling effect on others.
There is a story on my bunny-list which is set during the aftermath of an earthquake in the 1970s. I am having second thoughts about finishing it, due to fear of OUTRAGE being directed at me.

There's another reason I'm wary of participating in OUTRAGE. It's the pragmatist in me, again. Peer pressure is a common social tool for changing behaviour. But I am not a peer of these particular Failers. I am a stranger, they don't know me from Adam, they don't care what I think. Me joining in the OUTRAGE would not help.

The other side of that is that, well, I don't care what they think either. Why should I care what a complete stranger says anyway? Really. Someone is WRONG on the Internet. Big deal. Fail happens. Stupid happens. It will keep on happening. I am not going to fix the world by yelling at it. Keep calm, be polite. Lose your temper, lose the argument.

Take the latest round of FAIL. So someone made an insulting remark about people "being off their meds" because they disagreed with them. Yes, that's stupid and insulting. I'm "on meds" myself, and guess what? I am NOT taking that remark personally. I am not taking it as an insult to every person on the planet who is "on meds" either. (Or every person on the planet "on meds" who doesn't ship Doctor/Rose). I don't care. I simply don't care what this random stranger said. I don't give a stuff. Who is this person? Do they have a lot of influence or responsibility? No?(*) Then the potential for harm from their attitude is small. Why should I waste my time on something so unimportant in the scheme of things, then?

(*) Or, at least, they didn't until the OUTRAGE brought fandom's attention to them.

Perhaps this is bringing out the inner Slytherin in me.

ETA: Due to this post being linked to by metafandom and becoming a classic example of Step 8 of the above cycle, this post has been f-locked.

ETA 2: I've changed my mind after calming down and some positive advice. This entry is no longer f-locked, but comments are frozen, and new comments are screened.

Comments

(frozen comment)

[tptigger]

So I guess I'm a typical Ravenclaw for having missed said Fail altogether? Nose buried in a book? (I agree with your analysis though. I see stuff like that, and just make a not to ignore those people until they go away.)

(frozen comment)

[jaythenerdkid]

Honestly, I think I need to listen to my inner Slytherin a bit more often when it comes to fannish stuff. (I listen to her all the time in RL! Why can't I do the same on the internet?) I've decided I'm just going to chill with my flist for a while until people stop failing quite so much.

(frozen comment)

[kerravonsen]

I suspect that the rate of Fail has remained constant, it's just that the reportage about Fail has increased.

(frozen comment)

[boosette]

I wonder sometimes whether the OUTRAGE isn't intended to change the behavior of the failers, but to pre-emptively change the behavior or the onlookers within the group of the outraged.

(frozen comment) Here via metafandom

[sashajwolf]

Often it's just a genuine expression of the pain and anger the Fail caused someone, not particularly designed to achieve anything. That kind of expression can be useful in itself for the people affected by Fail, and I don't think they should be required to hold back from that kind of expression if they do find it helpful.

Whether it also changes behaviour depends on the recipient, I think - I certainly think I've made more progress in addressing my own racism since I started hanging out on communities where it was clear that POC were not going to be discouraged from expressing their anger about race-related Fail, and from there I've made progress on other forms of prejudice as well. Some people do better with calm, reasoned arguments, but some need to be confronted with the emotional impact of what they've done, or need a combination of both. Often one of the ways allies can help is to do the calm, reasoned stuff, because they don't have the same strength of emotional response.

(frozen comment)

[kaosalchemist]

When fail happens I sit back and laugh for the most part. Because its always so ridiculous.

(frozen comment)

[kerravonsen]

Oooh, now I really know this post has been mentioned on metafandom: I just had to delete an anonymous troll comment. Does that mean that I've Made It?

(frozen comment)

[jaythenerdkid]

Yes, I saw that! Did you get an IP?

(frozen comment)

[jackandahat]

It's got to the point where I won't write my own minority, because I know some people won't approve of how I do it, and I'm tired of getting accused of having internalised ableism/"able bodied privilege" for disagreeing with folk.

That said, I don't think fandom has got worse, it's just ten years ago I didn't have as much net time, so I didn't get chance to read the dramas.

(frozen comment)

[kerravonsen]

Yeah, the chilling effect is sad-making.

(frozen comment) "I like the way you think and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter"

[morgandawn]

"I just want/need/deserve/have to express my pain and anger" and "let's make the world a better place through action/advocacy/change" are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Or they do not have to be. In many ways, it is easier to express pain and anger than to communicate and persuade and those who are in the midst of their pain/anger cycle do not want to hear that they may be undercutting themselves and others in prevention.

And at times, I've have been on both sides of the spectrum. What frustrates me is that there often little recognition in our current public debates (and let's face it, even posting in your blog about your cat is part of the public debate) that there are people with differing POVs and motivations. And that's the real breakdown, IMHO. It would be so much easier if we could knock politely on the door and ask: "Ms. AdvocacyCommunication? Oh, you're Ms. AngerPain! So sorry. Moving on. Have a nice day."

PS. "This is Abuse. Arguments are down the hall." :-)

(frozen comment) Whoa, didn't Snape call Lily a mudblood?

[jazzypom]

Dunno why that thought struck me. Carry on.

(frozen comment) Here From Metafandom (and not to crucify you ;-)

[(Anonymous)]

As someone who is thinking of dropping out of fandom because I am tired of the fail debates, I pretty much agree with you. It seems to be a way to vent anger which isn't constructive for either side, the people venting or the people being vented at.

It also seems that in fandom there is one true way to think of things, and if you deviate then you're going to get tarred and feathered. I have a disability, but I don't agree with a lot of the rhetoric out there, but I know I would get crucified if I spoke my mind about it. And really, I enjoy being able to speak my mind.

I also think some of the people above are way off base on comparing things people said to the situation in Nazi Germany. Outrage can be helpful if Congress is going to pass some discriminatory legislation or the whatnot. But some Joe Shmoe on the internet saying something offensive is better off being ignored like a troll. In fact, by drawing so much attention to what someone said I think we're giving that person more credit than they're due. Whether the attention is positive or negative, they get their time in the spotlight. Why not put people doing something constructive and good in such a spotlight for a change? A lot of people feed off negative attention. It's better than being ignored.

That, and if we highlight what people are doing correctly, then we give people information on how to deal constructively and respectfully with racism/sexism/ableism, etc. Sometimes people simply never learned how to deal with it well, and yelling at them for doing it wrong is not going to help.

I learned a long time ago that I'm a lot happier when I stopped associating with people who say offensive statements by trying to change them or expressing anger at them. Contrary to pop psychology (I am a psychologist) anger just begets more anger. It isn't cathartic. You get stuck in it. I'd much rather focus my efforts on positive change than to remain mired in anger. You can't control what other people say, think, or do, but you can control how you react to it.

(frozen comment) Re: Here From Metafandom (and not to crucify you ;-)

[kerravonsen]

Yes. This.
THANK YOU.

(frozen comment) Here via metafandom

[lanjelin]

I just want to say that I agree with what you say, and with all the responses you've made in this post (except possibly that the "just and loyal" and "fair play" mindset is totally Hufflepuff, not Gryffindor, haha).

From just watching the debates, most rows have been between people who wilfully misunderstand each other. Fandom at large is a very tense place at the moment, and most real discussion has moved to the anonmemes.

(frozen comment) Re: Here via metafandom

[kerravonsen]

Thanks!

(frozen comment)

[maryaminx.livejournal.com]

Via metafandom.

I've got a huge amount of disagree right here.

First, a comment about people being "off their meds" is ableist. And just because you feel like it can be brushed aside as a "one person, who cares," doesn't mean it should be. So one person wrote a horrendously racist story. It was just one person; who cares, right? No, it should be called out.

People, especially those in marginalized groups, have a right to be angry when they encounter fail. Going all concerned-cat and saying "maybe people will learn if we're nicer!!" is completely unhelpful, and probably the worst thing an ally could say. Maybe you can stay ~calm and try to show the Failers the ~error of their ways. Good on you. But for a member of a marginalized group it isn't "just one person", it's society. That singular fail is just a reflection of all the other bullshit floating around in our culture. So you might think a round of NO is excessive for one poor commenter who might have worded zir comment badly, but it really, really, isn't. And once you and random commenter finally get that, we might start getting somewhere in all this fail.

(frozen comment)

[kerravonsen]

Considering that I am actually IN the group of which you speak (someone who is "on meds") then your argument collapses right there. I can speak for myself. You can't jolly well speak for me.

(frozen comment)

[persona_system]

Here via Metafandom.

I largely agree although I can see where people would find some of your wording troublesome. I'm part of several marginalized groups, and while I think that outrage is the appropriate reaction to certain comments, outrage is largely completely unproductive. Outraged makes people close off. And in my experience it makes the person who was wrong much less likely to listen and correct their ways. No one responds well to violent anger, and much of what fandom has been displaying towards "People Who Are Wrong on the Internet" lately has been very violent anger.

All of this outrage also has a tendency to piss of the very people the outraged people are trying to defend and represent. I personally am getting really sick and tired of every single post turning into a rant about mental illnesses and ablism. Yes, being disabled and having a highly stigmatized mental illness is hard. It sucks. It makes us all angry when we see people using troubling language. However, I don't enjoy associating with people who are always angry all the time. I don't enjoy associating with people who become so incensed at troublesome common vernacular that they have to go off on 40 comment rampages on some unsuspecting person on the internet. I don't enjoy associating with people who lurk snark comms jumping on every person who says the wrong thing at the wrong time and patting eachother on the back for being so awesome and totally not ablist/racist/sexist.

Most of all I don't enjoy associating with people who want to tell me when I should be outraged, and I really really don't enjoy associating with people who assume that I'm somehow an 'ist because I don't become outraged over stupid shit on the internet.

I'm also not happy with the people forgetting that the people being various bad-thing-ists are human beings with thoughts and feelings and limitations just like us. This doesn't excuse them from saying stupid things, and it doesn't mean they shouldn't be corrected when they do things that are wrong and hurtful. However, if there's a lesson this person needs to learn chances are good they'll learn it after the first 10 or 20 angry comments arrive in their inbox. The next 300 people who post angry comments to them or rant about how terrible and inhuman they are in a snark comm or post angry rants in their journals, those people cross the line from expressing their outrage to just plain attacking another person and violating their safety and security.

[vilakins.livejournal.com]

I was wondering what the latest fail was when I started reading. It usually takes me a while to find out because I just don't move in those circles or fandoms.

I suppose I don't mind as much because I'm Ravenclaw. And I've only just realised what made Hermione Gryffindor despite her studiousness: her desire to change things. I just know I'll never make a difference except maybe to a friend (and probably not even then) and I'd rather not know about the bad and depressing things in life. I'm happier that way.

[kerravonsen]

I usually Sort Ravenclaw, too. Very rarely a Sorting test has put me in Gryffindor or Hufflepuff, but never in Slytherin. I am not at all ambitious, and I am far far too straightforward. But in some things I am quite pragmatic, and I think pragmatism is often a Slytherin trait.

There are some things I get outraged about, irrelevant of whether I think I can make a difference. But insults by random fans? Not one of them.

I just know I'll never make a difference except maybe to a friend (and probably not even then)
Oh my dear, don't believe those lies you tell yourself. You make the world a better place by being here, and that makes a huge amount of difference.

[jaxomsride.livejournal.com]

I tend towards the Vulcan view "I never will understand humans"

[kerravonsen]

LOL!

[tardis-stowaway.livejournal.com]

Urgh, I made the mistake today of reading some parts of a recent fail/hate spiral in DW fandom. Always a mistake.

Fail happens. Stupid happens. It will keep on happening. I am not going to fix the world by yelling at it. Keep calm, be polite. Lose your temper, lose the argument.

Yeah, I wonder how some people in fandom survive in the real world, where there is so much more awful stuff to bruise their thin skins. I do think there is value in calling people out on fail, especially if it's something they might be doing unintentionally and might get better about if they thought about it. However, an angry tone usually makes people defensive, and once both sides have their hackles up, it's really hard for everybody to calm down. Suddenly fandom is like a bloody Tea Party, and much less fun for everyone else.

[sahiya.livejournal.com]

I wonder how some people in fandom survive in the real world

Not very well, sometimes.

[sahiya.livejournal.com]

I had someone on my flist until last night who's participated very vocally in the OUTRAGE part of the latest round of fail (and, actually, the round before that, too). I decided I just didn't need that much outrage in my day and removed them. I hate when people whose fic I love turn out to be vaguely unpleasant.

[wendymr.livejournal.com]

Either I'm very lucky or just very sheltered - I had no idea that there even was a latest round (or even several rounds) of wank, and am blissfully ignorant as to what it/they was/were about. Which, I have to say, is a position I am ecstatic to be in :)

[sallymn.livejournal.com]

What, another one?? What is this, the virtual version of the Thirty Years War???

I guess I have to remind myself - AGAIN - that when you mix with total strangers you can't expect them all to behave decently...

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

I don't know if you're on FB, but Izhi posted this yesterday. I think it speaks rather well to the whole outrage on the internet thing, especially in matters that simply don't matter.

A good analysis of internet communication

[kalquessa.livejournal.com]

SO. MUCH. YES.