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kerravonsen) wrote2021-05-04 02:37 pm
Approaches to Heroism in the MCU
We've got a bunch of heroes here, the Avengers, but they don't all see heroism in the same way.
Steve Rogers:
Why: To die for a righteous cause.
"You're not the guy to make the sacrifice play, to lay down on a wire and let the other guy crawl over you."
I was originally going to say "self-sacrifice" but that is too broad a phrase for what Steve considers heroism. Steve's idea of heroism emphasises physical courage, fighting the Bad Guys. It doesn't include self-sacrificing actions which are humble or supporting or behind-the-lines. Why do I say that? Because Steve lied multiple times to try to enlist as a soldier. Nothing else would do!
He'd probably agree with this: "I regret that I have but one life to lose for my country."
Selling war bonds would have been very frustrating for him, I think.
Guilt: paralyses, therefore it is a hindrance and should be ignored.
"This job... we try to save as many people as we can. Sometimes that doesn't mean everybody. But if we can't find a way to live with that, next time... maybe nobody gets saved."
This is Steve's coping mechanism, to ignore any guilt he may feel, because he has to keep going, to slog on, to complete the mission, to fight the war. Which is fair enough in the middle of a war, when he has a chain of command and orders to follow. But retaining this habit when he no longer has a chain of command (or no longer trusts it), that turns a coping mechanism into something dysfunctional. Why? Because ignoring all guilt means ignoring the true guilt along with the false guilt. And he doesn't have anybody around him that he is required to listen to, someone willing and able to give him a reality check. Which means that Steve is in the habit of ignoring when something is actually his fault; of not remembering when something is his fault. Which means that Steve has the mindset that he is never at fault, it is always somebody else's fault. This is a subconscious reaction that Steve isn't aware of. If he was aware of it, he would probably be appalled.
Related to this, though I'm not sure if it is a cause or an effect, is that if Steve is avoiding being reflective about what he has done, then he's not likely to learn from his mistakes, either.
Methods: When working with a team, you need to make plans. In the thick of battle, improvise.
Steve: Stark, we need a plan of attack.
Tony: I have a plan: attack!
This is another reason why Tony and Steve don't get along. Tony really does not play well with others; not because of his ego, but simply because he is so used to working alone, that he doesn't even think about what the others may do.
Right and Wrong: is absolute. There is no room for compromise.
"There's only one God, ma'am. And I'm pretty sure he doesn't dress like that."
"When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree besides the river of truth, and tell the whole world-- --No, you move."
"We may not be perfect, but the safest hands are still our own."
During WWII, Steve trusted the chain of command. After the fall of SHIELD, Steve no longer trusted authority.
Tony Stark:
Why: Making amends for his negligence. Fixing his mistakes.
"I saw young Americans killed by the very weapons I created to defend them and protect them, and I saw that I had become part of a system that is comfortable with zero accountability."
Guilt: Is a spur, a motivation to improve things, to do better next time. It should never be ignored.
"There is nothing else. There's no art opening. There's no benefit. There's nothing to sign. There's no decisions to be made. There's the next mission and nothing else. There's nothing except this."
"I shouldn't be alive, unless it was for a reason. I'm not crazy, Pepper. I just finally know what I have to do; and I know in my heart, that it's right."
Tony has this cycle: make mistakes, fix mistakes, learn from his mistakes. There is always room for improvement; he is never content with the status-quo.
Tony tends to feel guilt not only for things he has done, but for things he's omitted doing. This is understandable, considering that he hadn't cared what his weapons were doing, and seeing his own weapons being used to kill the people he thought he was protecting, that's a devastating wake-up call, what he sees as unforgivable negligence. This gets problematic when Tony's sins-of-omission list gets longer and more unrealistic. Tony tends to blame himself for things that he had no control over and could not have anticipated. Yet he isn't paralysed by this; it spurs him to work longer and harder. Because he has internalised the criticism of his father, that Tony is "never good enough".
Combining Steve's tendency to blame other people with Tony's tendency to blame himself, and you can see why Tony is sucked into the role of the scapegoat so often.
Methods: Do what works. Be pragmatic. Improvise. Do it yourself, because nobody else will do it as well as you can.
"I think I would just cut the wire."
Tony is brilliant and impatient, he doesn't want to wait for people to catch up to his thought processes. This is another aspect of why he doesn't play well with others; not because he's a narcissist, but because he's a racehorse in the midst of pack mules.
Right and Wrong: Some things are absolute, others are not. Everyone has an agenda; negotiate the best deal you can.
I think this is one reason he signed the Accords; not just that he agreed with them in principle, but so that he could be in a position to negotiate a "better deal"; that is, to remove the obnoxious and human-rights-destroying provisions which Ross had put in. Just a theory, but it makes sense to me.
Bruce Banner:
Why: He isn't a hero, he's a monster.
Guilt: is a crushing burden which can never be escaped.
Methods: HULK SMASH!
Right and Wrong: First, do no harm.
Thor:
Why: For glory, and to protect the weak.
Guilt: is for evildoers. Heroes are always righteous.
At least, I haven't really noticed Thor feeling much guilt about his actions; regret, yes, but not guilt. (Not until much later on, at least.)
But it's clear enough that Thor has a tendency to blame others, and make scapegoats. Which is not good for Loki, nor for Tony (see above).
Methods: Only honourable brute force and frontal assaults. Stealth is for cowards.
Right and Wrong: ?
I'm not sure exactly what Thor's moral framework is.
Natasha Romanov:
Why: To balance the red in her ledger.
Guilt: must be compartmentalised, for the sake of the mission.
Methods: Any means necessary. Nothing is unthinkable.
Natasha is the only person I've ever seen who has the ability to weaponize vulnerability.
Right and Wrong: Work for someone who has a better grasp of right and wrong than you do, and hope for the best.
Clint Barton:
I don't actually know enough about what motivates him, really.
And a couple more, because they are interesting.
Peter Parker:
Why: With great power comes great responsibility.
"When you can do the things that I can, but you don't, and then the bad things happen, they happen because of you."
Guilt: is a great motivator. (see quote above)
No wonder Peter and Tony get on so well -- not only are they Science Bros, they both have the same attitude towards guilt and heroism; that they have great power, and thus are responsible for any failures or inaction on their part. The complete opposite to Steve Rogers, really.
Methods: Protect the innocent, capture the bad guys. Don't kill anybody. Don't let anyone die.
Right and Wrong: are obvious, aren't they?
Loki:
Why: To protect the handful of people he loves.
Guilt: is for other people. (Except when you let your mother die, in which case, it is an eternal burden which will burn forever.)
Methods: Never be straightforward when you can have a cunning plan instead.
Right and Wrong: are illusions, fostered by those who have the most power.
This analysis of the characters has a lot of interesting implications. But the thing I'm most pleased about is that I think I've finally got a handle on Steve Rogers. At least to a degree. But hey, what do you all think? Am I mistaken about all this? Can anyone fill in the gaps in what I know? PLEASE chime in! (Don't let me think I am all alone in Space with a Chitauri army in front of me...)
no subject
This has been niggling at me A LOT. Because, yes, I was aware of the contents of this letter. And my interpretation of it is not stable: half the time I take it as it superficially appears on the surface, and the other half of the time it feels like a complete non-apology "apology". Steve spends half the letter explaining his actions - or is that justifying his actions? Making excuses for himself?
Arrrgh!
My interpretation is not stable.
no subject
Now, what he doesn't apologize for is the stand he took re: the Accords - but nor does he see it as something Tony should apologize for. He says he believes that they both acted according to their conviction about what the right thing to do was, and that this is all anyone should do. (As opposed to act against their conscience.) This is neither an apology nor is it blame throwing; one reason why I brought up the letter in the first place was because you thought Steve was blaming Tony for destroying the unity of the Avengers and I said in canon, he never does (as opposed to some fanfiction).
Again: it's important to separate the two issues addressed in the letter here - one was the "truth about Bucky" issue, which Steve apologizes for, and another the "splitting because of the Accords", which he doesn't. I happen to think he was wrong about the Accords, but I also don't think he should apologize for it considering this is not what he believes. Not because he never admits fault - he does - but because he truly believes he was doing the right thing here. Which doesn't exclude him accepting that Tony believes this with the same conviction. And as I said in an earlier comment - he does not blame Tony in conversation with other characters, either. I've yet to see the "Steve trashes Tony behind his back and blames him for "Civil War" scene outside of fanfiction.
One reason why I rarely read MCU fanfiction is because it tends to demonize either Steve or Tony - either Tony is the true villain of the MCU who is at fault for near everything that happened (I've seen this argued a lot), or Steve is. Mr. Monstrous Ego and sender of child soldiers vs Mr. Monstrous Self Righteousness, if you will, and I think both are grotesque caricatures. The MCU writing varies wildly in quality, but still the characters are presented on screen are more interesting and layered than that.
What I do think is the case is that people tend to pick their characterisation from the parts of canon they like best and ignore the rest, which is only human - I'm certainly not immune to the temptation - but that this does mean, for example, that the go-to Steve characterisation for the Steve-centric part of fandom is the one from Captain America 1 and "Winter Soldier" and the go-to Tony characterisation is a mixture of "Iron Man 1" and "Avengers" (I'm exaggarating in both cases, but you know what I mean), and never the two shall meet.
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